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| A page from the forthcoming graphic novel version of The Great Gatsby |
It’s a telling start to a chapter that is haunted by dashed dreams and tensions between many ideas: natural/artificial, past/present, dreams/reality, certainty/doubt, wealth/poverty, etc. Ask a question, share an observation, or respond to a peer’s post about any of these ideas on the class discussion page. Include a specific example from the text in your post.
"...he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream. He must have looked up at an unfamiliar sky through frightening leaves and shivered as he found what a grotesque thing a rose is and how raw he sunlight was upon the scarcely created grass"(169). Nick speculates that Gatsby finally realized the futility of hoping for a future with Daisy. As he lets this dream go, the world that he's built around him begins to lose its beauty and substance.
ReplyDeleteOn this quote about Gatsby looking up at the “unfamiliar sky”, it seems like Gatsby is noticing here the unfamiliarity of reality. He had been living completely guided by and focused on his dream of his future with Daisy, which he saw as inevitable. When he realizes that his dream is not inevitable and actually pretty much impossible, he is forced back into reality, which seems grotesque now that he has lost the dream that had driven his life for five years.
Delete"I've always been glad I said that. It was the only compliment I ever gave him, because I disapproved of him from beginning to end" (Fitzgerald 154). Nick has complicated feelings surrounding Gatsby. Although he says he disapproved of him, his actions seems to suggest otherwise. He does favors for Gatsby, he worries about Gatsby, and he defends Gatsby in both life and death. Evidently, he cares about Gatsby. I believe there are a lot of differences between Nick and Gatsby, and often they're juxtaposed with each of them representing one of the ideas above. Gatsby represents artificial, past, dreams, certainty, and wealth while Nick is all the opposites. However, they are connected through their lack of belonging in the world they live in. Despite Gatsby having found success, he doesn't fully belong because he doesn't have many friends. Nick also feels a disconnect due to his social status. The two are drawn to each other because they feel alienated from the rest of society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your explanation of Nick's complicated feelings surrounding Gatspy. Nick does say that he disapproves of Gatspy, but, as you mentioned, he also did really care about him. Nick's caring for Gatspy is clear when he tells Gatspy that "they're a rotten crowd", referring to Daisy and everyone else. By saying this, Nick tries to comfort Gatspy by explaining that he is better than the people in the dreams Gatspy had and strived to be like.
DeleteI agree, Nick in this chapter and the next shows how complicated his feelings are for Gatsby. Nick is caught in between disapproving if Gatsby’s life and feeling a sort of friendliness toward him. Even though Nick is disapproving of him, he sticks by Gatsby as others quickly leave his life. I also agree with what you said about them both feeling alienated. They both, especially Gatsby, know a lot of people but neither of them really have any friends which also draws them to each other.
DeleteI agree with this as well. I think your explanation of Nick and Gatsby's relationship is spot on, and they are both alienated from society, just in different ways. It is clear that Gatsby is weighed down by the glamor of New York, and in many ways Nick helped him through those struggles.
DeleteI agree with everyone here! I think it really demonstrates how much of an unreliable character Nick is as our narrator. Also about the conflicting morals during this time as the dilemma of supporting person vs supporting person's actions's ensues.
DeleteThese exchanges are great! Feel free to keep the conversations going or start your own.
ReplyDeleteGatsby is so caught up in his dream of winning back Daisy, that he is unaware of his reality. He creates a glorified image of her in his mind and it tortures him until his fate. He tries to relive the past and refuses to move on from Daisy, but in the end, “he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream”(172). Nick hints that Gatsby rather belongs in a place like heaven where he can freely dream instead of staying trapped in his actual life as he describes, “A new world, material without being real, where poor ghosts, breathing dreams like air, drifted fortuitously about…”(172). Gatsby has no purpose to live after his dream of Daisy “dies”, so is his death tragic or convenient?
ReplyDeleteI agree that Gatsby has a glorified image of Daisy and his relationship with her. I think Gatsby is still living in his fantasy of getting back with Daisy. He doesn't see that over the last 5 years Daisy and him have both changed. I think his death freed him from a lifetime of pain watching Daisy and her family grow without him.
DeleteI agree that once Gatsby's dream of being with Daisy ends then he essentially has nothing driving him to continue living life. My heart tells me that his death was tragic, and makes me still want to believe that he could've ended up with Daisy (because something happening between them seemed promising when they reunited). However, considering Daisy was his only dream in life and that dream was taken from him, his death was convenient for him, and it set him free in a way.
DeleteI like the point you guys are making. The excerpt that connects to the theme Dream vs reality where nick think he has “ an idea that Gatsby himself didn’t believe it would come, and perhaps he no longer cared. If that was true he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream." (173) Nick came to realize that Gatsby was living an illusion. Gatsby didn't want to believe that he would ever have to believe the reality that surrounded him. So he drowned himself in the dream he wanted to be.
DeleteAs Nick reflects on the first time he came to Gatsby's house, he recalls that "The lawn and drive had been crowded with the faces of those who guessed at his corruption - and he had stood on those steps, concealing his incorruptible dream, as he waved them good-by" (154). Gatsby was living a lie for a long time. He kept himself sane by the idea that someday Daisy would return to him and they would be together. Gatsby was living in his own world, when in reality Daisy was never really his. Was she going to choose him over Tom or was he always chasing an unrealistic goal?
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point that Gatsby was living in his own world. I think Daisy just chose where her life would be more convenient. She doesn’t have to love Tom in order to have a good life. I think at some point she realized she only had to be his wife and the mother of her child. The goal of getting Daisy back was not unrealistic because I do think she wanted to be with Gatsby. The only thing that changed was when he had lost his temper and she realized that he wasn’t much different from her own husband Tom. At that point, she didn’t think it made a difference of choosing Tom over Gatsby because her life was fine before she knew Gatsby returned.
DeleteI also agree that Gatsby was almost oblivious to the reality of Daisy's situation. He had built up this dream of her that he was chasing for so long, shown when he reached out to that green light across the bay, but he forgot that Daisy had a say in whether she left Tom or not. Daisy was clearly going to play it safe and stay with Tom, because that's what she had done her whole life. She grew up sheltered from any kind of difficulty, and as soon as Gatsby left for the war, she married Tom as a way to maintain that safe and easy lifestyle of keeping the old money within the family.
DeleteI agree that Gatsby was living in his old world in thinking that Daisy would be with him. I think that Daisy stayed with Tom because he was more simple and could offer her a steady life. Especially since they have a child together I think she felt even more compelled to stay with him. I think that Gatsby was chasing an unreasonable goal, but I don’t think he saw it that way. I think he thought love would be enough to make her leave Tom.
DeleteThis excerpt connects to the theme of wealth vs. poverty presented in chapter 8. There is a stark difference between Gatsby’s upbringing and Daisy’s, so in a way Daisy is his wealth. As described, once she returns to her house she is “leaving Gatsby - nothing.” Until he creates a wealthy life for himself he is constantly reminded of their different ranking in society, similar to the “frightening dreams”. Gatsby had grown to become restless over the idea that “she [could] vanish into her rich house...”(143), she had all of the power in their relationship due to her wealth and this scared him.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that due to the stark difference in their upbringing, Gatsby is afraid that he could lose Daisy at any moment. I think that he is scared that she will see him for his wealth and thus choose to leave him. I also agree that Gatsby admires the lifestyle that she lives, and because of that he finds Daisy to be intriguing and mysterious. In addition, I think the wealth and stability that she had with Tom ultimately prevented her from leaving Tom for Gatsby.
DeleteI agree, and I also think that although Gatsby may think he is in love with Daisy, he might just love the idea of her for the reasons that you explained (lifestyle and persona of Daisy). I think that yes, he has love for her, but it is almost outstretched in the book because their connection seems to be a bit surface-level.
DeleteAdditionally, Nick writes that "It excited him [Gatsby] that many men had already loved Daisy—it increased her value in his eyes". That she was loved by others is also almost a status symbol. While he may have seen and loved her as a person as well, and Gatsby did, what got him through the door was the idea that she was desired, that if he were to have her, he could be like those other men.
Delete"He believed that Mrs. Wilson had been running away from her husband, rather than trying to stop any particular car." (170) Mr. Wilson's reaction to his wife's death seems completely justified at first, especially when he tells the reader more about how he feels besides the grief of losing a loved one. "It was the man in that car. She ran out to speak to him and he wouldn’t stop." He blames the driver for the accident and doesn't even see it as an accident. The interest i had in this scenario was compounded by the first quote along with some others. They imply that Mr. Wilson is either willfully ignoring the relationship he had with is wife or was ignorant of it. This viewpoint is similar to both Tom and Gatsby's since they refuse to see their relationship with Daisy as what it might be, and see only what they believe.
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a really interesting connection. On page 162, Gatsby tells Nick, "she was very excited this afternoon. He told her those things in a way that frightened her—that made it look as if I was some kind of cheap sharper. And the result was she hardly knew what she was saying". This quote shows exactly how Gatsby holds onto his one perspective of Daisy and refuses to open his mind to other possibilities about how she feels. He acts as though he knows her true thoughts, often speaking for her when she says things that go against his beliefs about her. This set belief about Daisy and her love for Gatsby is partly what leads Gatsby to the disaster that surfaces at the end of the novel. If he had considered (and accepted) Daisy's true feelings, he wouldn't have let his obsession with her blindly lead his life astray.
DeleteI agree. I think this connects to the idea of dreams/reality and past/present. In his mind, Gatsby creates an image of Daisy and how his life would have been like and is stuck in the past. He revisits his old memories of Daisy and seems to try to recreate it and make it his reality by meeting up with Daisy and getting Nick to help him. However in the present/reality, Daisy has moved on from Gatsby which takes away Gatsby’s dream.
DeleteNick has complicated feelings when it comes to Gatsby because of Daisy however Nick still cares for him when he says, "...they're a rotten crowd". This shows that Gatsby cares about Nick and wants to clear things up.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the chapter, Nick imagines what Gatsby was thinking during his last seconds. He hypothesizes that Gatsby may no longer care to live because "he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world" and "paid a high price for living too long with a single dream" (172). Basically, Nick is saying Gatsby could not live with reality since dreams are not reality.
ReplyDeleteI feel like Gatsby has shown this emotion at the end of chapter 8 where he stands alone in the moonlight. I feel like this sudden depression was amplified by the glorified image of Daisy that he was holding onto for years. With that dream being impossible to achieve, he finds no reason to live anymore.
Delete"He stretched out his hand desperately as if to snatch only a wisp of air, to save a fragment of the spot that she had made lovely for him. But it was all going by too fast now for his blurred eyes and he knew that he had lost that part of it, the freshest and the best, forever"(163). After Daisy admits that she did love Tom, and after the two reconcile in chapter 7, in chapter 8 Gatsby sees that the past cannot be attained. In the chapter, you see Gatsby realize he won't ever be with Daisy. In his absence, she had changed, and the Daisy of present was more complicated.
ReplyDeleteEvan Bak
I wanted to comment on the light symbolism I saw throughout the chapter. “Nothing happened… I waited and about four o’clock she came to the window and stood there for a minute and then turned out the light.” (147). I think that the light symbolism here when he turns out the light is showing that Gatsby has failed his dreams and was not able to achieve happiness and the so called "American dream".
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting how Dr. Eckleburg’s eyes represents drastically different things to different characters. For Gatsby, Dr. Eckleburg’s eyes looking over the Valley of Ashes connects to how Gatsby can’t rewrite his past, even with his current wealth. For Wilson, Dr. Eckleburg’s eyes seem to represent some sort of higher power/god. I wonder why Fitzgerald made this choice/is there some other message he is trying convey?
ReplyDeleteGreat observation and question! The symbols in the novel often have multiple meanings or meanings that evolve over the course of the text (e.g., the green light could be said to transform from the hope of reaching a dream to despair of facing reality).
DeleteI also thought that it was interesting as well, that there were only eyes and nothing else (like a nose) is telling. Another example of a metaphor that touches on dreams vs reality is the green light. For Gatsby it represents chasing Daisy but Nick explains that he sees the green light as american settlers chasing the american dream.
DeleteI agree that Mr. Wilson sees the eyes as the eyes of god. Michaelis who for Mr. Wilson was the voice of reason, assures him "'That’s an advertisement,’ (171), implying that the power Mr. Wilson feels from god is fiction.
DeleteI thought it was interesting how the weather, in chapters 7 and 8 correlates and emphasizes the way the characters are feeling. In the previous chapter, chapter 7, Gatsby’s climactic confrontation with Tom occurred on one of the hottest days of the summer, under the scorching sun. Heat is used to describe the intensity of the events going on. The more intense the situation gets, the hotter it is described. However, in chapter 8, the weather begins cool and shifts to autumn drastically, after Gatsby realizes that Daisy’s feelings for him have changed and her decision to remain with Tom. “The night had made a sharp difference in the weather and there was an autumn flavor in the air.” (163) The cool autumn air somewhat represents the final end of Daisy and Gatsby’s relationship.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter eight, the themes of wealth stood out to me because it was clear that Gatsby’s upbringing versus Daisy’s was a big difference. I think in response to that, Gatsby’s attention fell towards the glamour and luxury of being wealthy, but as we can see later in chapter nine, the wealth factor makes others manipulative and less genuine. The reality is that materialistic outlooks on life can be harmful, especially if that is the only thing you can rely on.
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ReplyDeleteI enjoyed hearing gatsbys take on his falling in love with daisy. First of all there is the irony that Daisy thought gatsby was smart because he knew things different from her. It’s just an interesting thought on gatsbys part, he presumes he isn’t smarter than her, he just has different experiences. And this seems to be consistent in his thinking or not I kind of forget. But as I remember, gatsby doesn’t care where his money is from he has money and it’s from a different source of wealth than Tom. Gatsby doesn’t view himself as less than Tom, or Tom as smarter, he just has different experiences that led to wealth. Neither does daisy, she doesn’t judge gatsby. However, Tom thinks gatsby is less then because of how he got his money. I’m using intelligence and money interchangeable to show the difference in thinking. I also like that gatsby has his ambitions and is willing to throw it away for love. He says he could have more fun spending time with her and I liked that thought. Overall, I think the eyes on the billboard are pretty silly. I never really understood it and always thought the more interesting part of the novel was the characters.
When Gatsby tells Nick more about his past with Daisy, he says, "But he knew that he was in Daisy’s house by a colossal
ReplyDeleteaccident. However glorious might be his future as Jay Gatsby, he was at present a penniless young man without a past,
and at any moment the invisible cloak of his uniform might
slip from his shoulders. So he made the most of his time.¨ and during this passage, he really makes it feel as if it was a dream for him, but in reality, he knew that it was only temporary and that he was "nothing" compared to her.- Zoe Rigoulot
When the quote says "between grotesque reality and savage frightening dreams" It made me think of how a lot of us in real life when having trouble going to sleep wake up a lot and roll over between bad dreams or rough patches of the night.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 8, Gastby speaks a lot about the reason he fell in love with Daisy, and I think that at this point, it is clear that one of the most important reasons why Gastby loves Daisy is her social status, her wealth and her life in general. This is seen as Gastby admires her wealth and focuses his narration on her wealth and class.
ReplyDelete- Raphael Thesmar
One of the things that makes this book so interesting to interpret is how unreliable all of the characters are. They all have a facade that gives us a one-dimensional view of their true character, and the reader needs to do a lot of digging to find out anything substantial about them. Tom and Daisy are rude and unfaithful on the outside, and it's up to us to figure out why they stay together. Gatsby puts forth an image of vulnerability to Nick by discussing his past and current problems with him, but it hides the fact that we don't really know what he's looking to get out of life or what his motives are. The two characters chapter 8 looks at are Nick and Wilson. These two occupy similar roles: They're passive, milquetoast businessmen who constantly let themselves get screwed over by the people they're close to. We see a moment of morbid self-realization in Wilson when he says "I’m one of these trusting fellas and I don’t think any harm to nobody, but when I get to know a thing I know it"(169). One could reasonably pinpoint this line as Wilson's turning point when he finally breaks his facade and goes crazy, as this is right before he starts talking to Michaelis about the eyes of God and presumably starts to legitimately consider killing the car owner. We get no such closure with Nick's character. He never loses his temper with anyone or tells anyone what he's feeling. Personally I think the reason he says he's glad he complimented Gatsby upon leaving his house (164) is because it's the first (and last) time he's truly participated in a conversation with him. Their whole relationship has been Nick listening to Gatsby and trying to piece together who he is, but he never says much back. Whether he meant it or not, he carved out his position in the ordeal by siding with Gatsby before his death and that's as much character as we ever really get out of him.
ReplyDeleteOne passage that I thought summed up the heavy themes of shattered hopes and old dreams was, "...he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream. He must have looked up at an unfamiliar sky through frightening leaves and shivered as he found what a grotesque thing a rose is and how raw the sunlight was upon the scarcely created grass" (pg. 161). I found this passage interesting as it takes traditionally beautiful items (e.g. rose, sunlight) and makes them seem faded and lifeless. This is similar to the sentiment in this chapter, as the lovely Daisy (bearing very similar resemblance to the rose just described both in name and in mannerism) becomes a far away and faded dream to Gatsby.
ReplyDelete"He came back from France when Tom and Daisy were still on their wedding trip, and made a miserable but irresistible journey to Louisville on the last of his army pay. He stayed there a week, walking the streets where their footsteps had clicked together... He left feeling that if he had searched harder he might have found her--that he was leaving her behind"
ReplyDeleteHere Gatsby maintains a sense of doubt by thinking that he might have found Daisy if he searched harder, and throughout the novel he thought that he could get back Daisy. He did not know how exactly he would do it (since he experimented, ex. by trying to lure Daisy with large parties), but he was certain of the relationship between Daisy and Tom (that Daisy never loved Tom).
Now Gatsby is slightly less sure about that relationship ("Of course she might have loved him, just for a minute, when they were first married") but he is certain that he cannot get back Daisy. The doubtfulness/certainty of Gatsby's perception on Daisy and Tom's relationship and his chances of getting back Daisy have sort of flipped.
To me, the whole book is based around the ideas of dreams/reality and past/present intertwining. The dream Gatsby holds so dear revolves around the girl he knew before he went off to war. The reality, and his struggle with this dream come from the woman standing in front of him in the present day not being the same one he'd known."He wouldn’t consider it. He couldn’t possibly leave Daisy
ReplyDeleteuntil he knew what she was going to do. He was clutching at some last hope and I couldn’t bear to shake him free"(158). Nick suggests that Gatsby lay low for awhile, but he fears that leaving would mean his time with Daisy had come to an end. A situation that he probably sees coming.
Gatsby is pretty delusional about the state of his relationship with Daisy. He still clings onto the idea that she never loved Tom, and only married him because of his status. While this is obviously not true, Nick goes along with it because he feels bad for Gatsby. This raises the question for me about what are Nicks's true feelings towards Gatsby? At one point in the chapter when Nick is leaving Gatsby, he tells Gatsby that he is a good person and that the Buchanan's and people like them are not good people. He then tells the reader that this is the only compliment he’s ever given Gatsby because he disapproved of him from beginning to end. I have to wonder if this is true because it seems like up until now (and even now) Nick had mainly positive feelings towards Gatsby. If it is a lie, why would Nick say this? Is it a comment about the artificiality that comes with being around money?
ReplyDelete-Jona Lehmann
During Michaelis' relation of the evening's events to the reader, we learn that before his murder-suicide, Wilson admonished his wife, "God knows what you've been doing, everything you've been doing. You may fool me, but you can't fool God!"(159). Here we are given a perfect window into a man's breaking point, a breaking point brought on by the conflict of certainty and doubt in his life. The entire novel, Wilson has taken a backseat to the glamorous, wealthy denizens of West Egg, overcome with doubt in his own self-worth, in his wife's faithfulness, even in his ability to compete with Tom Buchanan to call himself a man, a real person. As so many people did and do during times of suffering, poverty, and crisis, Wilson turned to God for answers. In his fervor, he gained the certainty that he had been missing, about all aspects of his life. Finally given confirmation by higher power, he knew what he had to do. The shock of certainty rushing in after all the time of doubt broke Wilson, and drove him to murder Gatsby in cold blood.
ReplyDelete"He must have looked up at an unfamiliar sky through frightening leaves and shivered as he found what a grotesque thing a rose is and how raw the sunlight was upon the scarcely created grass"(169). As Nick imagines what Gatsby's final thoughts were, he describes the disillusion and disappointment he must have felt. He realizes his idolization of wealth and Daisy have left him nothing substantial. He has misspent all of his time and energy.
ReplyDelete"I’ve always been glad I said that. It was the only compliment I ever gave him, because I disapproved of him from beginning to end" (164). This is something I lost sight of in more recent chapters, but it makes sense in hindsight: in chapter 1 Nick states his "unaffected scorn" for Gatsby, which is possibly due to the lies Gatsby says in order to get back with Daisy. In chapter 7 and 8 he reveals more about his past: that he only went to Oxford for five months, and that he formerly knew Daisy and is now pursuing her more and and more. He tries to live vicariously through the past, and I think it is these lies and Gatsby's obsession with Daisy that Nick comes to dislike Gatsby.
ReplyDelete-Oliver